评委专访 | 罗杰·米罗——图画书，你手中的小小世界

小凉帽国际绘本奖 2022-11-10

第二届小凉帽国际绘本奖评委

罗杰·米罗

Roger Mello

关于罗杰·米罗

插画家、作家、剧作家。2014年安徒生奖插画奖获得者，其代表作品《羽毛》《红树林男孩》《小心翼翼》《彼岸之花》。

出生于巴西，从里约热内卢大学设计学院毕业后，慢慢进入插画行业。他曾为100多本书创作插画，并亲自为其中20本撰写故事。同时，他撰写的剧作也获得多项荣誉。

《小心翼翼》

他的作品和插画多次获得IBBY巴西分会及国家少年儿童图书基金会颁发的奖项，2次获得巴西最重要的文学奖项——乌龟奖；曾在2010年、2012年、2014年度三次获得国际安徒生奖（插画奖）提名，并于2014年斩获此项殊荣，成为巴西第一位获得国际安徒生奖的插画家。

独家访谈

受访人 | 罗杰·米罗（Roger Mello）

采访 | 景凯娟、刘梦溪、王若卉（Hiiibrand编辑）

地点 | 深圳甘坑客家小镇

时间 | 2018年12月22日

1 请问您是什么时候开始对图画书感兴趣的呢？

罗杰·米罗：图画书对于我来说一直是个神奇的存在，甚至人类第一本意义上的书正是这种形式。图画书里充满图像、插画、书法还有书的空间设计……我把图画书理解为“书”本身，正如我们认知最古老的书籍形式。而且图和文不能分开，好比“图”不能从“文”中分割出——图和文共同组成一个完整的“书”，你的手中就是一个小小的世界。

The picture book has always been amazing for me, it's related to the origins of the books indeed. Because the first book made by human beings which was already picture books, it was full of images,it was full of illustrations, calligraphy, design of the space of the book. So I understand the picture book or the Illustrated book as the book itself，as I recall to the origin of the book which is the illustrated books, so in this case we don't separate image from text. Both images and words are part of something that cannot be divided. The book is a whole object and it is, as I like to say, the world in your hand.

《红树林男孩》

2 是什么促使您走上图画书创作这条道路？

罗杰·米罗：曹文轩先生说，他履行哲学的方式就是做图画书，这点我非常赞同。图画书不仅仅是一门简单的艺术品，更是一种可以从中得到“反思”的艺术。它不仅能让你的世界更广阔，而且在不同的时间读也会带给你不同的感受——新的时间、新的可能性。因此，图画书带来的还有让人通过不断思考、不断反思的机会。

Mr. Cao Wenxuan from China says that his way to make philosophy is to do picture books, i totally agree with him. Picture book is not only a piece of art, but it’s piece of art that brings you reflection, that brings you opening of your mind and it's also related to time because each time you read the book,you divide the time, you create new possibilities of time. So the book is the possibility of thinking and rethinking.

镜中动物

3 您觉得怎样才能成为一个优秀的图画书画者？

罗杰·米罗：“插图”一直是一种讲述故事的强有力方式，这点非常有趣。通过这种方式，你也可以以一种近乎原始的表达方式去体验视觉艺术。插画是一种图像，但是又不单单是美丽的图案，更是一种表达。它们可以是一连串的故事，常常饱含着艺术的思考，以一种艺术的自由去承载某些功能，传递某些信息。

I think the illustration has always been a powerful way of telling stories and this is something very interesting too, because in this way you understand the illustration as one of the oldest expressions of visual arts. If you see the the paintings of the case, they are kind of illustration, they are not only images that are beautiful, because they have expressions. But they are a sequence of stories. They sometimes have a function to tell something to inform something but they are full of artistic Liberty, they're full of artistic of thought.

《羽毛》

当你看到一些图像，比如画中有一头犀牛或者某个怪物角色，你看到的不仅仅是一只硕大的动物，而是（画者）表达出来它是只野兽，那是因为我（画者）在绘画的过程中加入了自己的理解，运用自己的表达方式。所以图画书不仅是一种讲述故事的方式，更是一种展现画者所“看到”东西的方式。

When you see some pictures that show, that show for example, a rhinoceros or a master role, you were seen of not only the expression that says there is a beast, there is a huge animal outside but you think of this animal, I interpret this animal in my own way of painting. So it's a way of telling story that is not only telling what is out there but it's how I see the out there.

4 您很重视孩子们的想象力，您觉得如何才能借助图画书开发孩子们的想象力呢？

罗杰·米罗：“Imagination（想象）”这个词来自于“image（图像）”，它常常与文本和创造有关。但很有趣的是，在很多语言中，单词“想象”都是来自于“图像”。儿童是非常关注视觉的存在，他们充满诗意且强劲有力，因为孩子不会把图和文分开。图和文之间的关系可能远比我们想象得要更紧密。

Imagination is a word that comes from image. It's a word that talks usually about text or creating things. But it's very interesting to see that in many language the word imagination comes from image. Children are very visual beings and they're very poetical and powerful because they don’t make separation between the text or the written text and pictures they know that they are much more connected than people think or used to think they are.

《小心翼翼》

所以对我来说，图和文是平等的存在。可能许多人觉得两者并不是绝对统一平等，但是在我看来这点毋庸置疑。在许多灿烂的文化中都有体现，比如中国的文化。当你在写书法时，也是一种图画的创作，它也是一种基于图形的想象，如此想来，图和文的平等就很容易理解了。

So for me, to say that pictures and words are the same. I know that for most of the people, it looks strange we're all. But for me it's perfectly normal, and in the wonderful cultures like the Chinese cultures, it's very easy to know that when you do calligraphy, for example, you’re also doing picture, you're also doing imagination to image.

5 您对色彩很重视，在您的图画书中不同色彩会有不同的寓意吗？在您看来，色彩的魅力在哪里？

罗杰·米罗：我想，颜色就像是一个角色。设计是一个角色，绘画是一个角色，纸张当然也是一个角色。所以在我选择颜色、使用颜色时，就像去更多了解这个角色。颜色有点很有趣的在于，尽管有时人们会强加颜色以意义，比如红色代表暴力，黄色代表嫉妒……但其实颜色本身没有任何意义。

Color is also like a character, for me. Design is like a character, painting is like a charactor, paper is always a character. So when i am dealing with colors and choosing colors, I am, it is, as if I was getting to know better about the character. So each character, the colors, it's very interesting because although people think they mean something like red is violence or like, ummm, or yellow must be envious. But actually they mean nothing.

“Inês”

颜色有趣而强大。颜色也可以代表着“现在”，你看到这个色彩的一瞬间，也许是蓝，也许是红，立即便会和你生活经历中的红蓝相联系起来。说起“蓝色”，你会想到什么呢？每个人心中都有不同的蓝色，颜色是与“现在”，是“此时此刻”（的感觉），而不是将来或是从前。

Colors are very interesting because they are powerful. Color is the “now”, like when you see a color, for example, red or blue, you’re in connection with many feelings that you have in your life with that red or with that blue. If I say the word--- blue, each person is going to imagine a different kind of blue. We will have not similarity between the blues that people thought because the color is the possibility of a relationship with the “now”, not the future and not the past, but the “now”, the “present”.

《红树林男孩》

这点真的非常神奇，我们可以在艺术、在阅读中，与“未来”和“过去”相连，但是“现在”呢？其他可能做不到，“颜色”却可以。颜色本身没有任何意义，但是我们可以赋予它“此时此刻”的意义，它可以代表着“现在”，显示着你和当下的关系。

So this is very interesting because sometimes in arts or in reading, we are connected to the future and to the past but you can never connect with the present and color has this very important skill. And color doesn't mean anything, color means the present, color means your relation with the present.

6 在您看来电子化阅读对绘本的未来会有怎样的影响？

罗杰·米罗：我觉得电子书或者数码书可以提供一种新的可能，但除此之外，也没有什么绝对“新颖”之处，它就像是纸张的另一种形式。我本人是个科技迷，但是我仍然认为人类创造最不可思议的技术之一就是文字。文字或者说书写文字的创造就是我们有史以来最伟大的技术。

I think that e-books for example or digital books is also a possibility that I don't see， on the other hand, nothing new about it. It's just like another kind of paper. I am a huge fan of technology but I still think that's the most incredible technology that people created is words. When words are created or when this written text was created, it was the biggest technology ever.

尽管数码科技让我着迷万分，但是在我看来电子书仍然是纸质书的奴隶。

Although I am a huge fan of digital world and digital possibly, i really addicted to it. I think that the e-book is still a slave into the paper books.

《柠檬蝶》

是的，你可以利用科技这个新途径做许多事，可以画数码画，甚至做任何你想要的效果，但是还不够。我想也许以后还会有一种新兴形式的书本，一种全新形式的电子书，可能甚至不是用我们的手去翻阅，而是某种我现在也说不出的新鲜形式……但至少就我目前情况看来，电子书只是纸质书的搬运，仅此而已。不过我真心期待未来会有一种更新颖、更合适的新型书籍出现。

So in one way you can do whatever you want with this new major which is amazing, you can draw digitally, you can do whatever you want. But I think that there will be a new book, a new e-book that is going to be really new. It's a book I don't know that we're going to read with our hands and it's going...... But till now, the e-book for me has been a copy of the paper book and I wish it's going to be something else, something really a new technology but I like it.

7 与图画书相伴那么多年的你，和当初的你，在图画书观念上有没有什么变化呢？随着时间的推进，您对图画书有什么新的体会和见解吗？

罗杰·米罗：是的，那么多年过去了，真的是在这条路上已经走了很久。每一天，我都在想着我们应该把图书的选择权交给孩子自己。世界上有那么多优秀的图画书，甚至……非常有意思的是，世界各地的图画书似乎就组成了个小小地球村。

Yes…after all these years, these are really, these are really been a long long time. What I say is that each day I say that we should allow children to see and to choose the book they want because there is such an amazing quantity of books made all over the world. Ummm.... it’s very interesting, it’s almost like the world itself.

年轻的烧煤工

我觉得我们应该尊重儿童阅读的选择权，正如成人所拥有的一样。书籍和许多其他事物一样，可能对我来说是有生以来最令人惊喜的书，但对于你来说却什么也不是。每个人有每个人的看法，也许不是你的最爱，但它可能是我的最爱。

I think that we should respect the right that children and adults that the readers have to choose their books. Because sometime you don’t choose a book that for me is the most important and most amazing book ever. But for you, it's not. You have your point of view and sometimes this book at this moment is not your top five books in sort part of your top five books, but for me it is.

“Meninos do mangue”

所以还是那句话，也许在交流之后，你会说，“哦，我明白为什么你现在这么喜欢它了。”不过也有的时候，之前喜欢的书，可能又在某个时刻不想读了。

So again it's the possibility that I dialogue with you and then you're going to say: oh, I see why this book so important is for you right now, but in another moment I don't want to read now.

8 您觉得中国的原创绘本目前存在怎样的优势和劣势呢？

罗杰·米罗：我觉得现在中国的图画书是令人振奋、令人惊喜的。无数艺术家在中国冉冉升起，我也一直有关注他们的作品，如熊亮、曹文轩、幾米等等。许许多多的插画师和作家找寻到了属于他们的表达语言，在图画或者书写的文字中找到了自己的哲学，也找到了他们与“传统”（传统也极具“新颖”）之间连接的方式。

I think the picture books in China is very thrilling, it’s amazing. There are countless artists, and I have been reading the works of them, for example, Xiong Liang, Cao Wenxuan, Ji Mi. Countless and amazing illustrators and writers from China that are both find their own language and find their own philosophical quests in terms of image and written texts and a connection to tradition which is also very very very new.

“Cavalhadas de Pirenópolis”

古老的（文化）并不意味着无法转化成当代的东西。就比如我，我非常喜欢历史，也很喜欢那些书中古老的故事。我觉得瓷器也是某种形式的书籍，甚至墙壁也可以是本“书”。生活在这个时代，如果又能生动而有力地在作品中同时展现“传统”和“当代”，这是件非常令人兴奋的事。

Because it doesn't mean that's something that's very old can't be very new contemporary. I have been always a huge fan of the history and of the storytelling in books and I also understand porcelain as books, I also consider wall as books. I think that it's very thrilling, it's a delight to live in the present moment and to be able to see how vivid and how strong and powerful is in this production， for contemporary and traditional.

9 作为小凉帽国际绘本奖的评委，您觉得怎样的绘本才是好的绘本？

罗杰·米罗 ：非常荣幸能担任第二届小凉帽国际绘本奖的评委之一。我是在这个以“花园”为理念的客家小镇中做评审工作的，这个概念非常具有哲学性，还让我想起了中国的古老哲学。比如当时评审的地点就是在一个叫做“绘本花园”的地方。在这里阅读图画书，就好像在阅读的同时，你还能与周围的优美环境对话。这并不是脱离生活的阅读。

I have the honour and delight to be a judge in Little Hakka 2018. I have been judging in this amazing Hakka town that connect the idea of garden which is very philosophical and reminds me of ancient Chinese philosophy. For example the place where we have been to see all these books what is called the picture book Garden. So I think it's been the possibility to get connected to a book in the library that is in dialogue with the surrounding. It's not a book disconnect from life.

担任绘本奖的评委，和行业内的其他专家评委们共事，让我们能更近距离了解现在的作品是什么样的。又因为小凉帽国际绘本奖是个国际赛事，我们可以从数千个作品中看见不同的表达，思考的不同问题，各式各样的不同的方式，我们可以去观察作者们正在做的事情，正在关注、正在找寻的东西。

So being a judge and working with my partners, who were all very prepared experts, that we could also have this nice point of view of what is the production right now. And since it is an international award, we could see what they (the illustrators and the authors) are doing and what they are looking for. We could understand that we have different quests, we have different ways of thinking.

第二届小凉帽国际绘本奖获奖作品展部分展出绘本

并且，身为评委，我也有机会重新思索来自世界各地的作品，不仅是中国范围的，更是全世界范围的创作者们，去探究人们正期待什么，正思考什么，时代又将驶向何方。

And as i am a judge, it's the possibility of rethinking the production in the world, not only in China but through all over the world. What people keep looking for, what are the questions, and where are we going.

10 能谈谈您对本届小凉帽国际绘本奖的感受吗？

罗杰·米罗 ：我觉得小凉帽国际绘本奖是让大家与其他创作者交流的独特机会。当我一开始决定做图画书图文作者的时候，最吸引我的就是去塑造形象。而且如我之前所说，颜色可以是一种“角色”。设计可以是一种“角色”，它们如此地吸引我。

I think it's a very unique possibility of getting in touch with other artists. Because when I first decided to be a picture book writer and illustrator, what was moving me was the creation of the character. I told you that for me, colors are characters, design is the character and I am so fascinated about the character.

而绘画可以让一个一无所有的东西变成一个“角色”，这个全新的角色拥有恐惧，有愿望，会坠入爱河，甚至有时也会揣着些“坏心思”……这个过程非常有意思，从中你需要逐步去了解人性，去体会感情。在看了那么多作品后，我可以享受地观赏图文作者们是如何“从零至有”地创作，可以体会到他们是如何尊重儿童读者。

What makes possible illustrating is to make someone out of nothing. So you didn't have anything but now you have a character. In this character has fears, this character has expectations, falls in love, have a small little evil things also. It's very interesting because you need to understand humidity and understand how fiction gets you closer to human quests and human feelings. So it's very interesting to see how different illustrators and writers respect children in bring into them the best that they can bring as creating characters out of nothing.

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